Realfighting Magazine Interview with Stephen K. Hayes

1998 Black Belt Yearbook refers to Quest Center To-Shin Do founder Stephen K. Hayes as a "legend" - one of the "Five brightest stars in the martial arts." In 1985, Stephen K. Hayes was elected to the prestigious Black Belt Hall of Fame, for his years of pioneering work in introducing the legendary Japanese ninja martial arts to the Western world. Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi of Chiba-ken, Japan, awarded him the extremely rare honor of ju-dan 10th degree black belt. In 1997, Stephen K. Hayes founded the martial art of To-Shin Do. Stephen K. Hayes is also the author of nineteen books In the 1990s; he regularly served as personal protection escort and security advisor for Nobel Peace Prize winner the Dalai Lama of Tibet. Stephen K. Hayes is an ordained teacher in the 1,200-year-old Japanese Tendai esoteric meditation tradition.

Realfighting:
When did you start studying martial arts and what were the conditions?

Stephen K. Hayes:
I first began my study of the martial arts as a freshman at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. It was the mid 1960s, at the beginning of the Vietnam War, and a Navy Commander named John Kistler with the ROTC group on campus had a Tang Soo Do group for Navy midshipmen. I managed to talk my way into Commander Kistler's club even though I was not in the Navy program. I lived, ate, and slept martial arts training those four years in college. Of course my parents were terrified of my obsession. They were sure I was going to flunk out of school as a result of spending more time on my karate training than on my university studies.

Realfighting:
Did you study martial arts at an early age and were you very facile?

Stephen K. Hayes:
Studying the martial arts had been my dream since childhood, but in 1950s middle America, there were no martial arts schools as there are today. You had to be in California or New York to find a teacher in those days. I had to wait until I was in my late teens to begin. I was not anything at all like a gifted athlete. I was a slow learner, and really had to work hard for any skill I gained. Through sheer determination and lots and lots of hours of drill, I earned my black belt in Tang Soo Do in three years.

Realfighting:
How did you come to be interested in Ninjutsu?

Stephen K. Hayes:
I had first read of Japan's ninja in a James Bond novel I smuggled into high school study hall. Later after starting Tang Soo Do, I bought a copy of Andrew Adams' book on the ninja. I was riveted by what I read. The description of ninjutsu training was the kind of martial art I had dreamed of since childhood. I enjoyed my karate training, but there was so much more that was not covered or even acknowledged. I wanted more breadth and depth.

I wanted to study the Japanese weapon arts - sword, long staff, throwing blades. I wanted to learn more about all aspects of unarmed combat - the grappling that was not addressed at all in my sport karate training. I wanted to learn more about the mental and spiritual training that I had heard so much about being a part of the martial arts, but had never encountered in my first years of lessons.

Realfighting:
Can you tell us about your Ninjutsu studies in Japan?

Stephen K. Hayes:
It is absolutely amazing that they were willing to take me in the first place. I was so determined to gain access to the martial art of ninjutsu that I just got on a plane, flew to Japan, and hunted down the dojo. It was really quite preposterous what I did, now looking back. But I made it happen.

The grandmaster's own teacher had died just 2 years before I arrived, and so the grandmaster was really running a small club while he went through the period of testing himself and coming to grips with the fact that he was the new headmaster. There were only about 15 students. At that time, I was the only foreigner, though people from Israel and France had studied there before. Classes were not really "classes" as such. Those men just got together and trained and tested out what the new 44-year old grandmaster wanted to explore that week.

There was no attempt at systemized education. It was all a blur of testing, exploring, and creating, and it was very unsafe in there. The junior students were hit and thrown around very brutally without first receiving any training in how to receive such assaults. There was no concern for the student's experience - very radically different from the approach in my Quest Center schools today! I got a lot out of that experience, though training there was not at all easy, and it was never ever "fun."

I was very fortunate. In those days, the grandmaster was teaching ninja martial arts, and that is what I went there to find. By the early 1980s, he no longer taught the ninja arts to the masses. He changed his focus to teaching selected aspects of the martial arts he knew. He felt that very few people could really understand and appreciate authentic ninjutsu, and by emphasizing more straightforward martial arts, he could serve more people. At first this change confused me. I did not think I liked the change. But now I heartily agree with his logic. Those insights formed the foundation of why we teach the way we do at our Quest Center schools today.

I have written 19 books on the subject of my experiences in ninjutsu training since the early 1980s, so people who are really interested can check that out in more detail if they wish.

Realfighting:
Did you ever imagine you would have a career as a martial artist?

Stephen K. Hayes:
The most important thing I can say about that is that I started martial arts training looking for ways to better be prepared to bring about peace when others wanted violence. My motivation was to learn as much as I could from teachers who had the knowledge and skills and philosophies that I wanted. I never thought I would be a great teacher myself. I wanted to learn.

In later life, it just turned out that I had things that few others had, and so I turned into a teacher. Things like the Black Belt Hall of Fame and the attention I have received from martial artists around the world were not in any way my goals. They just happened along the way. Today I am blessed with a career that allows me to use my martial arts knowledge to inspire and encourage others like myself those years ago.

Realfighting:
Going to RMCAT was very brave on your part. You weren't afraid to test your skills. What did you expect? What did you learn?

Stephen K. Hayes:
Actually, I did not go there to test my skills. I really went there to see and try out Peyton Quinn and Bill Kipp's methods. I made sure to use the techniques that they taught when I was there.

I was very impressed with the honesty of the RMCAT program. Peyton and Bill are very good at what they do, and I want to salute that. What they are doing is a very new emphasis in martial arts training, and not all people want to acknowledge the importance of what they and some other similar program founders (Model Mugging, Impact, etc.) are talking about.

I really appreciate your acknowledgement of my checking out other teachers' methods as a "brave thing to do." I remember coming back from Japan in the early 1980s and running into a wall of "establishment" opposition to the new paradigm I was offering. I was so naïve and idealistic that I was shocked at the resistance. Put bluntly, I was a guy who had something that had never been explored in any significantly popular way in the martial arts then, and there were more people than I had imagined who wanted to shut me up. I guess I was bad for their business. So many well-known martial artists seemed to brand my contribution as "not real martial arts." There was quite a bit of pressure on the martial arts magazines to quit supporting my story and message. I was surprised that none of the greats from the martial arts establishment (other than karate legend Mike Stone) came to check out what I was doing. I was just dismissed as irrelevant, even though the popularity of my martial message went on to make mine the dominant name in the martial arts media for the 1980s. Now that it is my turn to be the "old guy" from the martial arts establishment, I want to support and salute the current decade's visionaries. It would be ungracious and hypocritical of me to do anything less.

Realfighting:
Was the start of your new system an outgrowth of your experiences at RMCAT?

Stephen K. Hayes:
No. I had my own method that I call To-Shin Do. But I really think what Peyton Quinn and Bill Kipp have to offer through their RMCAT program is a very important piece of the whole formula that has been missing from training for realistic self-defense. When I first started seeking teachers of ninjutsu in Japan in the 1970s, I was looking for training in the mind and spirit aspects of the martial arts. I had never found anyone in America who would deal with those aspects of fighting. How do we deal with all the chaos and turmoil on the inside when in the grips of a fight on the outside? Oh, sure, I had some naturally tough karate teachers along the way, and their answer was a comment like, "Just never back up," or some other natural behavior for a naturally tough guy. But how could a naturally gentle person go about resolving the conflict of needing to overcome a brutal thug without actually becoming a brute himself?

Realfighting:
Please tell us about your new system? How it started? Why it started?

Stephen K. Hayes:
To-Shin Do martial arts training is a thorough system of personal preparation for facing the kinds of conflict and opposition that can surprise us in the course of daily living. Our training program leads to the ability to live life fully, fearlessly, and freely.

The techniques at the center of our training method are based on an ancient and well-tested system of warrior disciplines handed down by nine historical Japanese family lineages. At the same time, our training program is built around a very modern approach to handling successfully the kind of threats and confrontations that are most likely in our own contemporary culture. To-Shin Do is a reality-based martial art that includes training in the techniques and strategies for dealing with:
" Grappling, throwing, choking, and joint-locking " Striking, kicking, and punching " Stick, blade, cord, and projectile weapons " Successfully handling multiple assailants and surprise attacks " Overcoming psychological intimidation or bullying

The Japanese written character for nin, of the root system of the martial art of ninjutsu, can also be pronounced shinobi, and is best translated as "stealth, endurance, perseverance, or 'putting-up- with'". We know what we need and we are willing to do whatever it takes to get it. Nin communicates the kind of strength required to keep our eyes on the grander goal. We are not diverted, even when tempted to take on those who try to pull us from our noble quest by throwing petty affronts and insults in our path from the sidelines.

The top portion of the Japanese letter character for nin is pronounced "toh" and means sword. This represents the martial arts technology we study to perfect. The bottom portion of the character is shin, pronounced "sheen", and means "heart". This represents the resolute spirit needed to prevail over the negative forces that attempt to drive us to defeat. Together as the one single character for nin, the To-Shin ideal reminds us of the miraculous power of knowledge and intention combined to result in spirited intelligence in action.

My Quest Center To-Shin Do training was born of the historical legacy behind three important roots of the ancient cultural heritage of Japan.

TO - the sword From the ninja combat methods of the legendary phantom warriors born of Mt. Togakure and cultivated in the wooded mountains and marshes of Iga comes the core of our physical protection techniques and strategies - a great way to reduce stress and increase strength, endurance, and flexibility, while fostering a sense of peace, security, and control in life.

SHIN - the focused spirit of intention From the rigorous kuji intention-channeling training of the shugenja of Mt. Yoshino comes the essence of our program for the discovery and development of the nine key qualities that characterize a fully actualized human being - a more focused and disciplined understanding of the cause and effect dynamics that lead to success and fulfillment in life.

DO - the path to mastery From the originally Himalayan esoteric mikkyo vajrayana mind and spirit sciences of Mt. Hiei comes the technique of cultivating our unlimited physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual potentials - skillful ways to transform the inner and outer challenges of life, and ultimately come to grips with the very question of how to experience directly the significance of life itself.

Realfighting:
Do you still teach Ninjutsu or have you set it aside and moved on to other things?

Stephen K. Hayes:
I still teach ninjutsu to a few of the senior instructors, but ninjutsu study is not at all promoted in my schools. I prefer to teach To-Shin Do. It is more relevant to today. Ninjutsu was developed for situations of oppressive warfare inflicted by invading governments who possessed superior military power but faulty moral basis. The truth is that very few people really need such knowledge, and even fewer could really handle the authentic ninja way of approaching conflict. Culture, laws, social awareness, and many other conditions are very different today when compared with the 15th Century in Japan. The To-Shin Do classes are much more relevant to most productive people's lives in the 21st Century.

Realfighting:
Could you tell us how you met and came to work with the Dalai Lama? Can you tell us about him?

Stephen K. Hayes:
I first met the Dalai Lama of Tibet in India 1986, a few years before he received the Nobel Peace Prize. We met again a year later at his brother's Tibetan Cultural Center in the USA, and then a year and a half later, I was with him in California when he received word that he had been awarded the Nobel Prize. How I came to travel with him in a security advisory capacity and then became a part of his family foundation is a long story full of unbelievable coincidental connections. Tibetan and Japanese Buddhists refer to such life-after- life connections as "en". I am working on a book about that period of my life. The story is too wild and long to tell in this interview.

I often tell people that the Dalai Lama is one of the few people I have met in my life who totally lives up to his billing. He is a truly awesome and inspiring being to spend time with. It is so rare in this day and age to be able to spend time with a real king, to watch how a real enlightened monarch handles the threats and challenges in a life dedicated to serving his people under the unforgivable conditions of 50 years of occupation by an invading army - in this case the cruel assault of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army. Just by watching the Dalai Lama in action over the years of traveling with him, I have learned a lot about how to conduct life with grace and gentility even when under adverse pressures.

Realfighting:
Have you had occasion to use your skills to defend yourself or your family?

Stephen K. Hayes:
Well, yes, but that is not really something that I want to document in public forum at this point. Maybe in the future…

Realfighting:
Do you train students at your facility or teach seminars or both?

Stephen K. Hayes:
I really have three jobs. In one of my jobs, I am the designer of the SKH Quest Center To-Shin Do program. I translate ancient methods and research and compile information that leads to the ever-growing development of ever-relevant programs based on proven historical models held up against modern situations. I then work through seminars and media products to make those methods more available to more people. Please consider having your school join our work!

In my second job, I teach the teachers in my own schools. My wife Rumiko and I instruct many of the advanced classes, and "coach" in the classes of our staff instructors, supporting and encouraging their work. In my third job, I am like the white-bearded grandfather figure in To-Shin Do. In that job, my privilege is to provide visionary authenticity through example, and then stay out of the way so that the instructors can enjoy the thrilling work of providing stimulating classes in life-changing technologies.

Realfighting:
Has 9/11 affected what and how you teach, and whom you teach?

Stephen K. Hayes:
The September 11 attacks on American civilians and subsequent events have had almost no effect on what I teach or the operation of our school. I think there are two reasons for such little impact on our operations. In the first place, we have from the beginning of our school emphasized real-world self-protection as the basis for our curriculum. As I mentioned earlier, this choice to focus on realistic self-defense methodology was a conscious decision that I made when I founded the school in the mid-1990s.

It is important to remember that many martial arts schools teach either abstract stylized movement as art forms, or teach sport forms designed for competition in the ring. In these types of schools, 9/11 hit hard, in that art or sport instructors found themselves having to become experts on real-world self-defense overnight when the demand hit. Please know that I am not at all being critical of others, and of course I am not trying to imply that sport champions "can't fight." What I am saying is that the conditions one would face in a real-world life-defense situation would call for a very specialized expertise in terms of sizing up the situation, picking the right response, and maintaining clarity of perception under the most horrifying of conditions. These realities of how the mind and body work under extreme life-threatening stress are "out of place" in a school that teaches art or sports.

The second reason that 9/11 had little effect on us is the fact that we really do not draw many students from the "I want to learn to fight" population. Isn't that ironic? The majority of the students in all of our Quest Center locations seem to be studying with us to cultivate a more at-peace sense of self for dealing with the more routine conflicts and confrontations in the office or on the streets. Students are drawn to us because of the spirit of our people and our place. Even students who are successful and accomplished leaders in their professions comment on how positive an environment our school is, and how just being in that environment is the real reward they seek from their training. Of course I am delighted to hear that, but at the same time I smile at the irony. We are one of the most real- world self-protection focused schools imaginable, and yet that just seems to be more of a reassurance than the main draw. The real draw is the lesson experiences in how to be a real winner in life no matter what the circumstances.

Realfighting:
Thank you so much for your time.

Stephen K. Hayes:
Thank you!